Discussion:
Feudalism
(too old to reply)
David Friedman
2010-02-08 21:09:38 UTC
Permalink
So if you want to
argue that in the middle ages they were equally easy, well, you need
to put a lot of effort into explaining exactly what was so massively
different about the middle ages. For example, were the middle ages
several orders of magnitude more conflict-free than the modern world?
I'm not sure I understand. Today's army is quite technological
and training there is useful in the civilian world. In the
Middle Ages the technology was quite limited.
Further, I don't know why you say that the Middle Ages were
orders of magnitude more conflict-free than the modern world.
You aren't following the argument. He didn't "say that the ...," he
asked a rhetorical question to which the expected answer was "they were
not."
As a person who was in high school and college prior to 1970,
I say that Constantinople is dead wrong.
First you have to figure out what he is saying.
What I was taught was that Lamarck believed that traits developed
by one individual could be (not *were*) transmitted to their
descendants. In other words, that life experience somehow
affected one's genes.
I was also taught that Lamarck was wrong and that experiment
after experiment had failed to show any inheritance of acquired
traits.
Yes. Everyone agrees about that.

The argument isn't about inheritance of acquired characteristics. The
question is whether Lamarck thought that all living things descended
from a common ancestor or not.

According to James and Constantinople, the accepted opinion of
historians of science used to be that he got that right, got wrong the
mechanism that produced the variation--thought (mistakenly) that it was
via the inheritance of acquired characteristics. According to them, that
view was suddenly revised a few decades back, to a version in which he
also got common descent wrong--thought that different organisms had
originated separately.

If I understand James' view correctly, he thinks the change was
motivated by ideology, and he is offering it as evidence that academic
belief really is driven by some sort of ideological conspiracy,
analogous to the way in which beliefs were controlled in _1984_ or under
Stalin, although with less direct mechanisms.

I think his theory is that common descent had to be taken away from
Lamarck in order that it could be made the distinguishing feature of
Darwin's contribution, in order to deemphasize Darwin's actual ideas,
because those ideas clashed with then current political ideology--in
particular, implied that there was no particular reason to assume that
different human races, as the term was used by Darwin and is still used
in common speech, didn't differ in substantial ways beyond the obvious
differences of appearance.

I'm taking no position on whether he is correct--I've never read
Lamarck, nor have I checked what histories of science written at
different times say. But that's his argument, as best I can tell, and
you seem to have completely missed it.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
Renia
2010-02-08 23:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
I'm taking no position on whether he is correct--I've never read
Lamarck, nor have I checked what histories of science written at
different times say. But that's his argument, as best I can tell, and
you seem to have completely missed it.
I profess total ignorance about Lamarck, until the emergence of this
thread. I could Google him, etc, but I'm not going to so I haven't got a
clue who or when he was or what his teachings were. Perhaps someone
could tell me why Lamarck was significant enough to be taught in
American schools, but not in British ones? That is, as you have all come
across Lamarck, I imagine you learnt of him in school?

(It's times like this that I realise just how American this newsgroup
actually is! Any other Brits out there who heard about Lamarck in school?)
unknown
2010-02-09 00:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renia
Any other Brits out there who heard about Lamarck in school?
Yes of course. It's incorrect to say that Lamarck is not, or was not
taught in British schools. However his work was used as a horrible
example of what happens when politics is allowed to interfere in
science.

Soviet Russia was keen on Lamarckianism. I don't think it was ever
taught in America other than in the same way it was taught in Britain,
with warnings that it was drivel.
Renia
2010-02-09 00:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Renia
Any other Brits out there who heard about Lamarck in school?
Yes of course. It's incorrect to say that Lamarck is not, or was not
taught in British schools. However his work was used as a horrible
example of what happens when politics is allowed to interfere in
science.
Soviet Russia was keen on Lamarckianism. I don't think it was ever
taught in America other than in the same way it was taught in Britain,
with warnings that it was drivel.
Well, I never came across Lamarck in either my Grammar school in the
1960s or while studying my degree in the 1980s. I wonder why not? When
were you taught about Lamarckianism?
Renia
2010-02-09 00:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renia
Post by unknown
Post by Renia
Any other Brits out there who heard about Lamarck in school?
Yes of course. It's incorrect to say that Lamarck is not, or was not
taught in British schools. However his work was used as a horrible
example of what happens when politics is allowed to interfere in
science.
Soviet Russia was keen on Lamarckianism. I don't think it was ever
taught in America other than in the same way it was taught in Britain,
with warnings that it was drivel.
Well, I never came across Lamarck in either my Grammar school in the
1960s or while studying my degree in the 1980s. I wonder why not? When
were you taught about Lamarckianism?
I see he was principally a biologist. I was principally not a scientist!
unknown
2010-02-09 00:55:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renia
Well, I never came across Lamarck in either my Grammar school in the
1960s or while studying my degree in the 1980s. I wonder why not?
What was the subject of your degree[1]? I took a degree in Molecular
Biology (Genetics) in the 1970s. It was certainly taught at degree
level, also at school (1960s).
Post by Renia
When were you taught about Lamarckianism?
Somewhat repeatedly between 1967 and 1978, almost always linked to
Lysenkoism.

[1] I wouldn't expect you to have studied Lamarck if your degree subject
was Physics or Drama for example.
Renia
2010-02-09 01:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Renia
Well, I never came across Lamarck in either my Grammar school in the
1960s or while studying my degree in the 1980s. I wonder why not?
What was the subject of your degree[1]? I took a degree in Molecular
Biology (Genetics) in the 1970s. It was certainly taught at degree
level, also at school (1960s).
Post by Renia
When were you taught about Lamarckianism?
Somewhat repeatedly between 1967 and 1978, almost always linked to
Lysenkoism.
[1] I wouldn't expect you to have studied Lamarck if your degree subject
was Physics or Drama for example.
I was hopeless at science at school and had no interest in it. My degree
was in history.
David Friedman
2010-02-09 03:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by Renia
Well, I never came across Lamarck in either my Grammar school in the
1960s or while studying my degree in the 1980s. I wonder why not?
What was the subject of your degree[1]? I took a degree in Molecular
Biology (Genetics) in the 1970s. It was certainly taught at degree
level, also at school (1960s).
Post by Renia
When were you taught about Lamarckianism?
Somewhat repeatedly between 1967 and 1978, almost always linked to
Lysenkoism.
[1] I wouldn't expect you to have studied Lamarck if your degree subject
was Physics or Drama for example.
I note that both you and Renia seem to assume, in this context, that one
learn about things only in school. None of my degrees are in biology,
and I don't know if Lamarck was mentioned in any class I took.
Nonetheless, I know in a general way what his position was and the
connection via Lysenko to Stalin.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
unknown
2010-02-09 19:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
I note that both you and Renia seem to assume, in this context, that one
learn about things only in school.
Umm no.
Post by David Friedman
None of my degrees are in biology, and I don't know if Lamarck was
mentioned in any class I took. Nonetheless, I know in a general way what
his position was and the connection via Lysenko to Stalin.
The subject has also been covered several times over in TV
documentaries.
David Friedman
2010-02-10 06:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by David Friedman
I note that both you and Renia seem to assume, in this context, that one
learn about things only in school.
Umm no.
Post by David Friedman
None of my degrees are in biology, and I don't know if Lamarck was
mentioned in any class I took. Nonetheless, I know in a general way what
his position was and the connection via Lysenko to Stalin.
The subject has also been covered several times over in TV
documentaries.
That is not someplace I am likely to have seen it, however.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
unknown
2010-02-10 06:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Friedman
Post by unknown
The subject has also been covered several times over in TV
documentaries.
That is not someplace I am likely to have seen it, however.
I'm saddened to hear that you deliberately restrict your information
intake. Hopefully the aberration is a temporary affliction.
David Friedman
2010-02-10 08:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Post by David Friedman
Post by unknown
The subject has also been covered several times over in TV
documentaries.
That is not someplace I am likely to have seen it, however.
I'm saddened to hear that you deliberately restrict your information
intake. Hopefully the aberration is a temporary affliction.
I am unfortunately provided with a limited budget--only 24 hours in the
day. On average, I think I learn more arguing with people on Usenet than
I would watching television.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
erilar
2010-02-10 15:11:12 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by David Friedman
I am unfortunately provided with a limited budget--only 24 hours in the
day. On average, I think I learn more arguing with people on Usenet than
I would watching television.
8-) Books are better than TV, too. In fact, even when "watching" TV,
I usually have a book in my lap to read during commercials--and often
well past them.
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist


http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
James A. Donald
2010-02-10 22:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
Yes of course. It's incorrect to say that Lamarck is not, or was not
taught in British schools. However his work was used as a horrible
example of what happens when politics is allowed to interfere in
science.
Actually, that is Lysenkoism. Lysenko accepted Lamarckist beliefs
without calling them that.

Lamarck's proposed mechanism for evolution is politically congenial on
the left, but because his proposal has been famously and thoroughly
refuted, his numerous successors never call it Lamarckism, instead
calling it various new, highly progressive sounding, and highly
scientific sounding, names.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/
David Friedman
2010-02-09 03:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Renia
Post by David Friedman
I'm taking no position on whether he is correct--I've never read
Lamarck, nor have I checked what histories of science written at
different times say. But that's his argument, as best I can tell, and
you seem to have completely missed it.
I profess total ignorance about Lamarck, until the emergence of this
thread. I could Google him, etc, but I'm not going to so I haven't got a
clue who or when he was or what his teachings were. Perhaps someone
could tell me why Lamarck was significant enough to be taught in
American schools, but not in British ones? That is, as you have all come
across Lamarck, I imagine you learnt of him in school?
I have no idea where I first read of Lamarck in school, or whether he
was more likely to be covered in the U.S. schools than the U.K. ones.

He was significant for two reasons. First, he was a precurson of Darwin,
telling a similar story of species changing over time but with the wrong
mechanism.

Second, Stalin believe in Lamarck and pushed the ideas of a Russian
Lamarckist by the name of Lysenko, providing a standard example of the
use of state power to try to impose a mistaken scientific theory.
--
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/ http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Author of
_Future Imperfect: Technology and Freedom in an Uncertain World_,
Cambridge University Press.
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